|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Erutpar Ambient
The Flying Tigers
Black Core Alliance
96
   |
Posted - 2014.02.14 09:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
So yeah, I fully agree with the idea that teleportation has to change.
That being said, there are a few problems with changing these systems.
First and foremost, I'm sure the reason CCP is scared to change this is because the Cyno jump/bridge mechanic is a pivotal role in battle escalation. Without having caps able to jump to a cyno BR5 and 6VDT wouldn't be possible. And as we all know, these type of battles are what EVE Online's reputation is built around.
Another thing you have to remember when dealing with this issue is that it does affect affect Sub-Capital dynamics as well as Capital. Most specifically Black Ops etc.
That being said, i think there are ways to enhance or rework the mechanics without having to do too much system overhauling.
Now, there is an article i remember reading a while back about the lore and how jump drives work. It had to do with using gravity wave resonance where the gravity from 2 stars overlaps and somehow allowing jumpgates to fold space between each other. Using this "Lore" and the recent trend of deployables galore we can create a new system that has multiple cynos with separate limitations.
For instance, we can replace the Cyno gen module with a deployable:
Small Mobile Cyno Generator(uses star's gravity resonance) - 40m3 (or so) Must be deployed within 0.5au of a star (just an example for the idea).
Large Mobile Cyno Generator(creates own grav res field) - 1000m3 no positioning limits.
Covert Mobile Cyno Gen: ???m3 no positioning limits, doesn't broadcast in system.
These modules would have a deploy timer to prevent instant power projection and to create a bit of dynamic mini strategic objectives to kill them before onlining/loading up enough ships to carry them to get one online or placing them in a strategic position either on or off grid.
This wouldn't completely cull the total power projection however it would add a bit of resistance. Navigation with a personal capital will be a bit more strenuous, however if you dwell in sov space you would be less likely to be hot dropped on a regular cyno gen.
Not sure if there would really need to be any kind of penalty to the deploying ship with these restraints. The deployable itself would be the asset on field and with an anchor and unanchor time there is engagement opportunity.
The old "Local perfect intel" debate would also play a role in this discussion. But to me this seems like a good start. |
Erutpar Ambient
The Flying Tigers
Black Core Alliance
96
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 10:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
Ilyana Nehla wrote:Erutpar Ambient wrote:
First and foremost, I'm sure the reason CCP is scared to change this is because the Cyno jump/bridge mechanic is a pivotal role in battle escalation. Without having caps able to jump to a cyno BR5 and 6VDT wouldn't be possible. And as we all know, these type of battles are what EVE Online's reputation is built around.
You are partly right and party wrong about this. An alliance setup well in terms if defensive and offensive can still fight that hard. With the PPP the ships are then bound at this location or close to that due to the jump. They still can use gates to slowboat to somewhere else. Regarding BR5, the battle lasted for 21h. Enough for any subcap and cap to actually slowboat there from almost everswhere. In 21h you also gain 10,5 PPP, letting you still jump a bit (or keeping it for extraction). If an alliance or caolition doesnt have a fleet at their borders then they will pay the price. They will just need enough power to hold up the enemy untill reeinforcements arrive - either way gatetravel or jumping. Now you have to decide is it important because you wont hold any longer? Jump. Can the fleet hold up long enough? Slowboat. Adds a new layer of tactical and strategical decisionmaking to the game.
Well i guess with the PPP, you definitely wouldn't have Asakai.
My idea is more of a baby steps type of idea. It wouldn't completely affect the movement of power across the galaxy, but it would have a direct application in system and in those battles. Dropping into the middle of a battle will no longer be a trivial thing. The cyno will no longer be instant and it will no longer be tied to your ship's EHP.
Also it would limit the ships you can use to cyno. All fast frigates and combat sub caps would be restricted to cynoing at the sun. To cyno where you want you'll need a hauler/carrier/super/titan. And then if it is dropped on the battle field it can be popped before becoming active because you no longer have to pop a super to shut it down. The tactics will be where to drop it to be most beneficial/viable to the battle and survive.
And one last thing. We know that the Mobile deployable structure thing isn't too hard to implement based on all of the recent additions we've seen. This idea i came up with would just remove Cyno modules from ships and put it in a deployable. There are no changes in regards to how jumping/bridging to a cyno works. All that changes is there are cyno gens you can plant without a POS.
It doesn't stifle Power Projection in distance, it just stifles Power Projection in application. You can still drop on top of another fleet, but it won't be easy....
________________
On that note, i guess the initial thought behind this thread might not be fulfilled by my idea. So i guess a question is in order.
Is the whole point of the PPP idea to created a diminishing ability to acquire and defend more area? Is this in preemptive of the blue donut? |
Erutpar Ambient
The Flying Tigers
Black Core Alliance
97
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 10:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
Oh, i wanted to add one more thing.
In regards to Pod Express (changing med clone location and self destructing pod).
Instead of tying that into the PPP, why not just put a delay on changing your med clone location. Realistically how can you have a clone ready and made instantly in the new station? How fast does one really need to have their med clone relocated?
The amount of time is mostly arbitrary. 2 hours, 24 hours... It just needs to be significant enough to prevent abuse. |
Erutpar Ambient
The Flying Tigers
Black Core Alliance
99
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 18:03:00 -
[4] - Quote
Assuming the reasoning behind this thread is to prevent and or dissolve the impending Blue Donut by reducing the ability to project power. I have couple more of points i would like to add to this.
First of all. I want to make the point that the reason power projection is so strong is not because of the ability to move assests. But it is instead because of the extreme Ease of moving assets. That is to say, there are no stipulations in jumping to a cyno. All it requires is that the cyno is in your fleet.
Another way we could put diminishing returns on power projection is to require your cyno to be a part of your alliance or, even more extreme, corp.
Instead of one person being able to control all logistics you would have to dole out that responsibility to more people and things would get quite a bit harder and less coherent. This would reduce the synergistic nature of Blocks. It would also reduce the safety of move ops because you'd have to advertise who you were in a system you were jumping to before you jump. Currently neutral alts are used extensively for safety in anonymity.
Of course, again, the local debate will come up with forcing people to advertise themselves before jumping. Also you can get past this if you just pile everyone into one alliance, then you'd still have the blue donut.
Another way to reduce sov holding ability would be to, of course, remove automation. Currently it takes minimal effort to hold space. As long as you keep your wallet funded the bills will pay themselves. If people have to actively maintain sov in each system there will be a limit to how much one person can do. It will require more people to maintain it and they'll require an amount of trust to keep that sov maintained. This would prevent alliances from taking up more space than they can actively maintain.
And yes i know it that this is one of those "EvE Online my 2nd job" type of mechanics, but that's part of it. There should be limits to how much of the sandbox you can claim based on the effort you're willing and able to invest constantly.
Both of these things you can directly compare to the Drone Assist Nerf. What one person used to be able to do must now be doled out to multiple people to attain similar but never as much effectiveness as there was before.
The reason Drone Assist is OP is because it compresses the effort of 1000 people into the effort of 1 person. The same goes with Capital Jumping Logistics and with Sov upkeep. What keeps up with the systems for 1000 people or provides the effort for 1000 people to move is compressed into 1 person. And by the transitive property it means they are also OP. |
Erutpar Ambient
The Flying Tigers
Black Core Alliance
103
|
Posted - 2014.02.17 20:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ok, I have another idea. This one might make some sense. The one i had before about where cyno's could go would mostly just affect the ability to camp and junk, and would only affect pinpoint power projection, not total power projection.
First of all I think the solution to all of this stuff is in workload/effort redistribution.
Of course the pod mechanic I think is a good change to make immediately. What reason do you need to have your med clone moved immediately other than to teleport across the map. Pod Jumping has a timer per use, so should med clone in an effectively similar way.
So one of the ideas is about cyno's having a Spool up time. Well, I was thinking about the opposite. What if Ships had a spool up time to jump and bridge? And in this way they should have a longer spool up to jump/bridge longer distances. Maybe even a small exponential increase in time as the distance increases.
This would have some implications of course.
First of all, capitals could no longer "jump out" immediately when in danger. This would put them on a sort of even playing field compared to sub caps that have to align and warp but not so detrimental that they would actually have to align and warp themselves.
Second, being able to put ships on the field effectively would require them to be nearby. Infact the closer they are the more effectively you can deploy them. This would curb real time power projection at range.
Another thing this would do is increase workload to cross the galaxy. To make the full jumps, you'll have to have a cyno sitting out in space for a while (the time is something that can be determined later, and maybe have a skill component). And the farther you make your jumps the longer the cyno has to sit in space and the longer your capitals are sitting in space too. They become a lot more susceptible during large move ops (another detourrant to trans-galactic move ops).
Then, along the same line's as Marlona's Original idea.
Another thing that could decrease Power Projection would also be a sort of time modifier for recent jumps. I would like to call it "Jump Drive Recalibration" So every time you make a jump (or start one), your ship will have an increased spool-up for the next jump. This would decrease over time of course. If we relate it to Marlona's Idea then the time period would be 24 hours for the Jump Drive to "Recalibrate". This could significantly reduce the amount of power someone can project across the galaxy in a 24 hour period.
If we did have a system like this we could just repackage the skill "Jump Drive Calibration" as the time modifier and have all capitals able to jump/bridge at their full range.
Or we can even do a system where the first jump is instant and the subsequent jumps are affected by the Recalibration mechanic.
In any case, I do find that this system is as restrictive as the PPP but without having a hard cap on the actions you can make. (Soft edges on the Sandbox) |
Erutpar Ambient
The Flying Tigers
Black Core Alliance
103
|
Posted - 2014.02.18 00:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:I like the idea of Cynosural Fields as deployable objects with a spool-up (on-lining) timer. All the mechanics are already there. CCP would only need to swap a few digits in the database.
The bigger problem would be how to deal with the fuel (liquid ozone) usage. Should it simply sit there running indefinitely until it's decay timer has expired with no fuel usage? Should it be recoverable? Should it have a fuel bay?
Perhaps there could be different meta versions that can be jumped to from various ranges distances. They should have higher levels of Cynosural Field Theory required and larger volumes. Perhaps increased fuel usage.
They most definitely should not have reinforcement timers. I also think such a deployable should be allowed to anchor on-grid with other structures.
Currently the Cynosural Inhibitor is nearly useless because it has a significant onlining timer, whereas cynos do not.
You could use LO to build them, and once deployed they can't be scooped. Or you could put LO into them and it would run the module for a period of time based on the amount of LO and after it runs out you can scoop it. This module idea would be the easiest way to transition to a different cyno mechanic AND it would prevent ships from shielding the cyno i.e. a cyno on a carrier/super/titan.
Another thing about the delay to jump. It would be in order with the Micro Jump Drive module to have a delay.
|
Erutpar Ambient
The Flying Tigers
Black Core Alliance
103
|
Posted - 2014.02.18 00:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
WoAz wrote:Two easy solutions that could fix power projection:
1. A time delay linear proportional to LY jumped (e.g. 1LY = 10s) to jump again.
2. Caps jump in at zero capacitor.
these 2 mechanics would push people to jump as far as possible in each jump.
You could jump 10LY once and be out of capicitor once or you can jump 1ly 10 times, take 90 seconds extra total and have to recap 9 times (would would probably take significantly more time than the 90 secs for each jump.)
Tell me again how this is supposed to reduce power projection? |
Erutpar Ambient
The Flying Tigers
Black Core Alliance
107
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 07:12:00 -
[8] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Megarom wrote:I also fear that the change you proposed is simply not feasible due to it's drastic effect on logistics and trade everywhere outside high-sec. I have mentioned many times that the way logistics, trade and industry would still need a health dose of an overhaul. Everything is connected of course. With real distance put between places, there is now room for justification and reason to do these things. Right now there is no reason to buff industry at the edge of null when players will still use places in low and high sec to do it. After all, it is only a few minutes away. Just imagine how over the top you would have to buff industry in that same edge of null to be 'better' than high sec if the difference is still just a couple minutes? It would be insane.
So you didn't like my idea with the spool up time on jump drives that increases with distance to be jumped and increases subsequent jumps based on how far you've traveled already? So if you jump to the system next door it takes 1 sec to spool up jump drive, but if you jump 10 ly it takes 10-20 sec. And after you make that jump, your next jump spool up timer will be increased by 2-3 times. Also, jump clones are fine the way they work right now and med clone location updates would take a few hours to take effect.
This would do a few things.
It would limit distance without having an arbitrary brickwall cap on movement.
It would expose capitals much more while engaging.
Jumping caps into a fight would be a much greater dedication since extration would be harder.
Taking control of systems in close proximity to a battle location may become strategically significant.
The amount of the constraints could/would be adjustable to find a sweet spot.
Is this not what you're PPP is trying to accomplish? Are there any strong points this fails to live up to? |
|
|
| |
|